Dealing with Extremists
Jul 17
Despite escalating violence, everyone seems very up beat about the border conflict between Israel and Lebanon. President Bush summed up how easily solved these issues are:
“See, the irony is what they need to do is get Syria to get Hizbollah to stop doing this shit and it’s over.”
Sounds pretty simple doesn’t it? The Israeli army agrees, saying the violence should cease when all of the hostages taken recently are returned unharmed. Yet something about this argument didn’t make sense to me until a journalist asked the Israeli spokesman whether he believed it was realistic to expect that the hostages would be returned. He dodged the question. Similar questions posed to Bush and Condi have gotten evasive answers as well.
That’s really the heart of the matter. Israel has refused to negotiate a ceasefire until the hostages are safely released, but know perfectly well that bombing Lebanese civilians is more likely to get the hostages killed. This isn’t about the hostages anymore. It’s a declaration of war against the tiny, struggling democracy next door. The conflict will not end until Israel is satisfied that Lebanon has been pacified.
The War on Terror justifies any tactics, including terrorism. Israel believes they can scare Hizbollah into peace by bombing power stations, water treatment centers and even government buildings. They have to know, like we do, that if you kill someone’s friends and family they are more likely to take extreme countermeasures than sit down and try to talk it out.
As sad as it seems, this hand full of Israelis, who might already be dead, are just a politically convenient excuse to launch a new war against an old opponent. By repeatedly invoking the fates of these few civilians, they justify 100 times as many civilian casualties at their hands. But because we’ve looked the other way in this situation before, and don’t want to look hypocritical, we’ll all just have to hold out hope for those Israeli prisoners. And look the other way while civilians die.
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Jul 19, 2006 @ 06:22:51
Every time I try to think about the situation with Israel my head hurts, it\’s too complex. But, Kos put it into interesting perspective on his site:
\”I grew up in a war zone. And there was one clear lesson I learned — there will never be peace unless both sides get tired of the fighting and start seeking an alternative.
It\’s clear that in the Middle East, no one is sick of the fighting. They have centuries of grudges to resolve, and will continue fighting until they can get over them.\”
I always end up at this question on the situation: Yes the land of Israel was stolen from the Arabs but should the Arabs just \”get over it\” at some point? I know that\’s much easier said than done, but from a realistic point of view they will never get that land back. The \”west\” would never allow Israel to fall, so in a sense it\’s futile. Obviously I know it\’s not easy to be rational about it when it\’s \”your\” land, but is it really futile? I guess they don\’t assume so since they keep fighting.
Jul 19, 2006 @ 07:49:39
If people moved into your backyard would you ever “get over it”?
It must be very hard to resolve your differences when American made missiles are pulverizing your home and killing your family.
How would it feel to be herded into refuge camps, imprisoned and humiliated on a constant basis and then made to look like the aggressor.
When they do stand up for themselves the are called terrorist.
I think we all really know who the ‘extremists’ are.
Jul 19, 2006 @ 08:04:58
Yeah I totally understand and agree with that that. But, if you make the logical assumption that Israel isn’t going away, what is the best course of action for the other peoples of the region? If we make the even larger assumption that Israel would stop their own terrorist attacks against the Palestinians and other local areas, I still don’t think the other side would stop, although the “cease-fire” we saw between Israel and Hamas a few years ago was encouraging.
I think someone of the Palestinians needs to stand up and say “Fine. We are where we are, we can’t change history. We will set up our country and if Israel stops murdering us we will also stop and try to live in peace.” An imperfect solution, but the only viable solution I believe.
Is there a better solution?
Jul 19, 2006 @ 09:25:30
There are so many emotions involved that it’s only natural for better judgement to be clouded by despair and remorse. But we need to take a deep breath and face certain universal truths.
1) An enemy will fight hardest when they feel cornered.
Every side feels cornered now, defending their land, caught between bitterly hostile neighbours and an international community paying lipservice but doing nothing useful.
2) You can’t negotiate with a faceless enemy, eg. terrorists.
The language of war is one of propaganda, of framing the debate so that your enemy deserves no mercy. By refusing to “negotiate with terrorists”, you get to conveniently ignore their legitimate grievances.
3) You can’t avenge a death by killing in their name.
It’s a classic cycle of violence. It allows otherwise rational people to draw a line in the sand beyond which they can abandon rational discourse and let knee jerk reactions and mob mentality rule. And when we all believe in this right of revenge, it hampers our efforts to calm the situations.
Jul 20, 2006 @ 10:48:10
I think it’s hard for the Palestinians to negotiate when there leadership is assassinated and imprisoned.
Behind invasion columns come bulldozers. They flatten areas to prepare it for settlement, I don’t think they are interested in negotiation.
Did you know Israel uses sonic bombs as fear weapons? Does that not sound like a terrorist act?
In the last year the Qassam rockets have killed a total of 0 people.
How can you come to a solution when a country uses the capture of soldiers as a pretext for the destruction of an entire countries infrastructure?
Hamas and Hezbollah did not kidnap anyone, they captured enemy combatants, and I think there is an important distinction there.
Jul 20, 2006 @ 11:28:15
Joe, I understand all that; I think most people do. The problem is that’s only half the story – Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, are also doing evil things. Is it honourable to send suicide bombers to blow up buses full of school children? No. Is it honourable to send helicopters to fire rockets into crowds of innocent people? No.
Both sides are wrong and are still fighting because of stubborness and hatred. Now, I’ll grant you my person opinion is that of the two sides Israel is being more “evil” than the other, but that’s actually irrelevant if you want to get peace.
Now, I’ve heard your grievences in the situation but I’d like to hear your ideas for how to solve the problem. It needs to involve concessions on both sides because there’s no way Hamas would stop attacking Israel if Israel simply withdrew into their borders and never attacked any Palestinians again.
Jul 20, 2006 @ 13:03:05
Possible solutions:
1) UN peace keeping force between border. Duration indefinate.
2) Allow a legitimate Palestinian state. We don’t know if Hamas would stop attacks or not but the fact is it’s never happened.
3) Parity – Peace through MADD. (probably not viable)
It’s hard to come up with a solution when all the information (for me at least) is second hand. let’s face it, we don’t know what’s really going on there.
The Author makes a good point, unless both sides want peace it cannot be achieved. I fear this may be the case here.
As for consessions, I don’t know… What do the Palestinans have to offer? Besides a cessations of attacks.
The last Hamas suicide attack happened in August of 2004. Neil, what bus full of children are you referring to?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3256858.stm
You could ask them to stop hating Israel but I don’t think that will be possible for several generations.
What do you think would be a viable solution?
Jul 20, 2006 @ 13:19:51
These pages all make references to attacks on school buses, buses with children on their way home from school, etc.
http://www.harpers.org/SuicideBombing.html
http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-%20Obstacle%20to%20Peace/Palestinian%20terror%20since%202000/Suicide%20and%20Other%20Bombing%20Attacks%20in%20Israel%20Since
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelworst.html
http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp
http://www.aipac.org/hamas/hamasAttacks.htm
My point is that while a lot of the world may consider the struggle of the Palestinians to be the more “honourable”, their actions in these attacks are not. Both sides are doing atrocious things
Jul 24, 2006 @ 10:41:35
Let’s not ignore the Israeli jets firing on ambulances and hospitals. If you’re going to compare terrorism, don’t make it one sided.
http://www.salon.com/wire/ap/archive.html?wire=D8J2BCQG0.html